0:00

0 seconds

Ron: Well, that was cute. 

Sharon: No. Oh, we're not done. Pickle. 

Ron: Oh my god.

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6 seconds

Sharon: Pickle. [laughter].

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9 seconds

Sharon: I guess he's not going to want the onion that I brought. 

Ron: Oh my god.

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12 seconds

Sharon: So, my next guest is a global privacy leader with 20 years of experience building and running privacy programs

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20 seconds

for major brands like American Express, Tinder, Grindr. Today he is the inaugural chief trust officer at Mine

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29 seconds

and has been a longtime leader in the global privacy community. Let me see if I can get him in the car. Need a ride. 

Ron: I think so.

0:38

38 seconds

Sharon: Hey, come on in. Hi. How are you? 

Ron: How's it going?

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41 seconds

Sharon: So, Ron, thank you so much for being on Carpool Consulting. 

Ron: Thank you. Thank you.

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46 seconds

Sharon: So, Ron, um, you know a thing or two about being a privacy officer. 

Ron: I think so.

Sharon:  I think you know a lot.

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53 seconds

Ron: Just a bit. 

Sharon: I thought it would be really interesting to compare what CPOS's have to go through and compare it to uh Taylor Swift songs.

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1 minute, 5 seconds

Ron: I'm glad I'm still a Swifty. 

Sharon: Oh, [laughter] are you okay? Phew. I'm going to say a title of a song.

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1 minute, 13 seconds

Ron: Okay. A Taylor Swift song. 

Sharon: A Taylor Swift song or a fake song.

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1 minute, 17 seconds

Ron: Okay. 

Sharon: And you're going to have to tell me, is this a Taylor Swift song

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1 minute, 24 seconds

[laughter] or is this a song written about a life of a CPO?

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1 minute, 29 seconds

Ron: Oh my god, I have. [laughter] 

Sharon: First one, Mastermind.

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1 minute, 35 seconds

Ron: God, c life of a CPO 

Sharon: and a Taylor Swift song. [laughter] Safe and sound.

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1 minute, 44 seconds

Taylor Swift song.

Sharon:  Yes. 

Ron: Okay. 

Sharon: Strictly necessary. 

Ron: Life of a CPO.

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1 minute, 48 seconds

[laughter]

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1 minute, 50 seconds

Sharon: I think he knows Taylor Swift. 

Ron: Yeah.

Sharon:  Illicit affairs.

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1 minute, 55 seconds

[laughter]

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1 minute, 57 seconds

Ron: My husband's watching, but I'm going to say both.

Sharon:  [laughter] No consent. 

Ron: That's the life of a CPO.

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2 minutes, 4 seconds

Sharon: Vigilante shit

Ron: Shit?

Sharon: Yeah. Vigilante shit

Ron: That's Taylor Swifty sounding. 

Sharon: Okay. Yeah. Champagne problems.

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2 minutes, 11 seconds

Ron: Oh, Taylor Swift. 

Sharon: I would say also CPO

Ron: after, after all that we deal with.

Sharon: Yeah. Requests to be forgotten.

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2 minutes, 20 seconds

Ron: Oh my god, I love that. That's me. Life of a CPO. I could make it. That's this this would be a great album by [music] 

Sharon: Right, I think so. Crossing borders.

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2 minutes, 30 seconds

Ron: Both. 

Sharon: No. No. Put Taylor Swift down. Look what you made me do. 

Ron: Taylor Swift.

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2 minutes, 38 seconds

Sharon: Yeah. Shadow profile. 

Ron: Life of a CPO.

Sharon:  Bad blood.

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2 minutes, 44 seconds

Ron: I'm gonna say both because when people don't complete DPIAs, that gives me some bad blood.

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2 minutes, 50 seconds

Sharon: All right. Taylor Swift not only write songs about breakups, but also the life of CPO. I want to ask you like 

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2 minutes, 58 seconds

what are the challenges you often see that privacy officers have?

Ron: Literally every single time I was either a one-man show

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3 minutes, 7 seconds

or um had maybe one or two, you know, folks working with me as privacy managers. 

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3 minutes, 14 seconds

So, I think the first kind of challenge that I think most of us have is is resourcing 

Sharon: 100%. 

Ron: Do you do you see that with your client?

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3 minutes, 21 seconds

Sharon: I see that so much and it it almost doesn't even matter if it's a big company or a small company. Sometimes you're shocked that bigger companies don't have a big privacy.

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3 minutes, 33 seconds

Ron: 100%

Sharon: It's shocking. 

Ron: They don't have a big privacy team. They're still on manual processes, too. 

Sharon: Yes

.

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3 minutes, 39 seconds

Ron: Still on spreadsheets. Like I work for mine, which is a privacy compliance platform. And 

Sharon: plugin, 

Ron: just a small little plug. But honestly,

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3 minutes, 47 seconds

when I have calls with prospects and they are, you know, these large companies where you'd expect a lot of investment, they're still doing DPIAs manually.

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3 minutes, 56 seconds

They're still doing the whole looking at the 21st state privacy law on a spreadsheet. And I think again it leads back to the lack of resourcing,

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4 minutes, 5 seconds

not only from an FTE perspective, but from a budget perspective.

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4 minutes, 9 seconds

Sharon: Right. So then what advice would you have for CPOS that don't have a big budget, that don't have a lot of resources, are on their own,

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4 minutes, 18 seconds

but still need to make sure their company is compliant. What do they do? 

Ron: Yeah, we need to start advocating 

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4 minutes, 25 seconds

for the need for other additional resources, whether that's, you know, someone that can help us lead AI governance, someone that can maybe,

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4 minutes, 32 seconds

you know, um help operationalize privacy platforms, for example, someone that can do the day-to-day minutia. Uh,

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4 minutes, 41 seconds

a lot of the times when we try to demonstrate our value, we use a lot of what I like to call vanity metrics. 

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4 minutes, 48 seconds

So it's like, oh, I did 30 DPIAS this quarter or you know, I helped to review 50 vendors. I think we need to get out of that space,

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4 minutes, 57 seconds

Sharon: okay?

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4 minutes, 58 seconds

Ron: And attach ourselves to really important business objectives or projects 

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and show how we help deliver them on time, how we help enhance or add. So, it's like just attach yourself to key projects that

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5 minutes, 14 seconds

have a real sense of visibility to the board 

Sharon: or a real impact on the business. 

Ron: 100%. 100%.

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5 minutes, 20 seconds

Sharon: I like that. In addition, I would add finding champions within your company or your enterprise

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5 minutes, 28 seconds

that you can lean on. They find privacy really interesting.

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5 minutes, 32 seconds

Ron: They do. I love this idea of a champions program.

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5 minutes, 36 seconds

Sharon: Absolutely. and encouraging them by recognizing them in some way. Making sure that the rest of the company recognizes them. 

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5 minutes, 42 seconds

And once you can demonstrate the worth that you bring to the business, then they may see the value in you and want to add some more budget and resources

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5 minutes, 52 seconds

Ron: and make sure you're talking the language of the folks that you're presenting to. Because again, remember that CEOs, they they understand the concept of compliance,

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6 minutes, 1 second

but they don't really or should involve themselves in the minutiae of it. So why are they going to care about metrics that are

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6 minutes, 9 seconds

really detailed? You need to bring it up a level. And I've learned that the hard way.

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6 minutes, 14 seconds

Sharon: Absolutely. And I would also say consider looking at what your quick wins are. What are the quick wins to get that credibility as fast as possible?

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So make a list within, you know, the next, say, 60 days. this is what I'm going to try to achieve 

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6 minutes, 28 seconds

to show my worth and my impact in the business.

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6 minutes, 32 seconds

Ron: Yeah. Yeah. And you know how you can do that a little easier?

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Sharon: How how [laughter] Ron How, Ron,

Ron: this is not a quick plug, but I I'm a huge advocate I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid yet, but I am a huge advocate for platforms that are fit for purpose.

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6 minutes, 46 seconds

Sharon: Absolutely.

Ron: I think platforms that have really good dashboarding are really helpful because you know obviously they automate the types of KPIs that you want to achieve

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and and demonstrate. I advocate for platforms that are fit for a purpose of a company's

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uh privacy program and I get the really great job of helping other chief privacy officers understand 

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7 minutes, 11 seconds

Shared comment shared pain points and walking them through that process.

Sharon: Yeah, I mean if it's going to save you time,

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7 minutes, 18 seconds

if it could even um buy you the time before you have the resource to get another uh member to your privacy team.

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7 minutes, 28 seconds

Ron: Sure. Yeah. 

Sharon: It makes a world of a difference. 

Ron: Yeah. Yeah. 100%.

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7 minutes, 32 seconds

Sharon: Yeah. Okay. So, Ron, what other difficulties have you found um as a privacy officer? 

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7 minutes, 39 seconds

Ron: One of the pain points is obviously we were often look at looked at as roadblocks, you know, as that check the box gate, you know, um

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7 minutes, 48 seconds

somewhat of a of a nuisance, if you will. And I hate saying that, you know, and I think there's this famous term that

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we're looked at as um the house of no, right? 

Sharon: Yeah

Ron: I mean, and you've seen this, right? 

Sharon: I have seen this

Ron: Like we we are we are there 

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8 minutes, 3 seconds

To help companies comply with laws and sometimes we do have to push back.

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That's our job.

Sharon: Absolutely,

Ron:  I think a way to get um around that is to find ways in which you can help for example 

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8 minutes, 15 seconds

product teams achieve their goals right so sitting in on product road mapping and getting in earlier to say hey here's a little bit of a um

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8 minutes, 24 seconds

something that you might want to consider so that down the line that privacy controls instituted 

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8 minutes, 32 seconds

and we aren't in a mess of trying to change code that is going to essentially mess up road mapaps right so I What I'm trying to say is to distill it down.

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Speak the language of the stakeholders that you are trying to support. 

Sharon: Yeah.

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Ron: Um find out what's important to them. Um and again on get in on as many meetings as you can

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8 minutes, 52 seconds

Um when I was at Tinder for example, heavily engineering organization, I would just sit in on on

9:00

9 minutes

their you know sprints and just you know just absorb as much information as I could.

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9 minutes, 6 seconds

But I also found at that point at those points that maybe there's a bit of risk here and being able to work with them to address it earlier

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9 minutes, 14 seconds

um I think is is really helpful.

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9 minutes, 17 seconds

Sharon: And I actually find that they're a lot more receptive to hearing what you have to say at the early stages 

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9 minutes, 24 seconds

as opposed to what do you mean? We've already built this now you're telling us to go back to the drawing board and rebuild.

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No, 

Ron: 100%. 

Sharon: So force yourself into these meetings.

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9 minutes, 34 seconds

Often times you're not going to be invited because it's not because  well I mean maybe they don't want you there but it's not always because they don't want you there.

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9 minutes, 41 seconds

It's mostly because they just don't think of inviting you. 

Ron: Exactly. 

Sharon: Right. Like you on top of their mind.

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9 minutes, 48 seconds

Ron: Exactly. That's such a salient point because um you know their their number one mo is not privacy. It's to make the company money.

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9 minutes, 58 seconds

Sharon: Yeah.

Ron:  to to and and to help drive that I think we helped to obviously um be aware of what's important to them. 

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10 minutes, 6 seconds

The one thing I wanted to add Sharon um was you know the first day I started at um

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Tinder I reached out to our CEO. I was a, you know, lowly pro privacy program manager at the time,

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but I made it a point to get 15 minutes on his calendar because it helped him understand

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why I was there, the importance of we were implementing GDPR at the time of this initiative. and he sent out a companywide email

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and said basically in a nutshell Ron's going to be coming to to talk to you and every after that every single leader

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SVP SVP and below made time to to speak with me so 

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as much as you can I know not not every privacy pro here can get time on a CEO's calendar try it though

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10 minutes, 58 seconds

because I think once you get that top level support things are just so much easier and you're not scrambling and you're not, 

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you know, trying to make a case for or advocate for yourself because the top already sees that as important.

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11 minutes, 12 seconds

Sharon: honestly, the CPOS that I see are the most successful are the ones that throw themselves into uh those offices of other people having conversations.

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Even if it nothing other than this is who I am, this is my role. 

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This is how I would love to support you. And  when is the next team meeting? Can I just be there? 

Ron: A fly on the wall. 

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Sharon: A fly on the wall. I'll just listen. 

Ron: Love it. That's such great advice. Yeah.

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Sharon: Oh, thanks for the advice. [laughter] You You gave it all.

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Ron: Thanks for confirming that was great advice.

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11 minutes, 48 seconds

Sharon: Well, we just great we great minds. Ron, someone told me that your favorite road trip snack is chocolate.

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I cannot get,  ah by a day without chocolate. 

Sharon: So, you are a chocolate lover. 

Ron: Like maybe more than that, I think.

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12 minutes, 5 seconds

Sharon: Oh, okay. Are you picky when it comes to chocolate? 

Ron: I am. 

Sharon: Uhoh. Okay.

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12 minutes, 10 seconds

Ron: I'm so picky in the sense that No, here's the thing. I do like dollar store [laughter] chocolate sometimes. 

Sharon:  Okay, Yeah.

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12 minutes, 18 seconds

Ron: But I don't like chocolate that's like I'm not a big fan of white chocolate, for example. 

Sharon: Okay. Okay

Ron: That sort of thing.

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12 minutes, 23 seconds

Sharon: Okay, we're good. First things first, I got you a big tub of Nutella. [laughter] I hope you like Nutella. Do you like Nutella?

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12 minutes, 31 seconds

Ron: I love Nutella.

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12 minutes, 32 seconds

Sharon: Okay. Well, now you can't say that you don't cuz I just All right. 

Ron: Yeah.

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12 minutes, 35 seconds

Sharon: Uh, okay. I'll go first. But just so you know, there's more to come.

Ron: Okay.

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12 minutes, 41 seconds

Sharon: Okay. Um what I wanted to do with you is um see how much you actually like chocolate. Okay.

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12 minutes, 48 seconds

Cuz you said that you love it. It's like you more than love it. I don't even know what that means. I was wondering do you like chocolate with

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12 minutes, 56 seconds

an almond? You're not allergic to almonds, are you? 

Ron: I'm not allergic to almonds.

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12 minutes, 59 seconds

Sharon: Oh, yeah. I mean, I hope not because you're eating. 

Ron: I do. Yeah.

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13 minutes, 3 seconds

Sharon: Okay. So, here you go. Um, and I'll join you because we got to have road trip snacks together. Otherwise, it's not fun. And Nutella.

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13 minutes, 10 seconds

Ron: Oh my god. I've never done that. But 

Sharon: what? You've never had

Ron: No, with Nutella.

Sharon: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Um, next pretzel. 

Ron: I'll try it.

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13 minutes, 17 seconds

Sharon: What? You're already hesitating 

Ron: with Nutella? [laughter] 

Sharon: What? Really? Try it.

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13 minutes, 22 seconds

Oh, god. Ron, we're going to have problems if you're already hesitating. It's It's gluten-free, by the way.

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13 minutes, 29 seconds

Ron: I didn't know that pretzels could have gluten. [laughter] I got hard pass. Hard pass. 

Sharon: Corn chip.

Ron: No.

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13 minutes, 38 seconds

Sharon: What? 

Ron: With Nutella.

13:40

13 minutes, 40 seconds

Sharon: I I'm getting a feeling that you don't actually like chocolate all that much.

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13 minutes, 49 seconds

Ron: I'm going to put that right there.

13:50

13 minutes, 50 seconds

Sharon: What the Okay, that's interesting. 

Ron: Have you had Nutella with like fries? 

Sharon: I have not. Have you had it with salami?

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13 minutes, 59 seconds

Ron: Oh my god. I'm done. I'm done.

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14 minutes, 2 seconds

[laughter]

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14 minutes, 3 seconds

Sharon: No. No. Come on.

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14 minutes, 5 seconds

Ron: Also, I'm pescatarian, so 

Sharon: No. Are you okay? All right. Fine. You get out of bed. 

Ron: You can try it, though. 

Sharon: No no, But we're not done.

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14 minutes, 13 seconds

Ron: Okay. [laughter] 

Sharon: It's just getting interesting. Carrot.

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14 minutes, 21 seconds

[laughter]

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14 minutes, 23 seconds

No. Okay. 

Ron: Well, that was cute. 

Sharon: No. Oh, we're not done. Pickle.

Ron: Oh my god.

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14 minutes, 31 seconds

Sharon: Pickle. [laughter] 

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14 minutes, 34 seconds

I guess he's not going to want the onion that I brought.

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14 minutes, 36 seconds

It was an absolute pleasure having you in my car. 

Ron: This was so much fun.

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14 minutes, 41 seconds

Sharon: It's too short. I could talk to you all day.

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14 minutes, 43 seconds

Ron: Same. Love that we could do this in my hometown of Toronto.

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14 minutes, 46 seconds

Sharon: All right. Anytime you're back, you're you're welcome to get back in the car with me. 

Ron: Great. 

Sharon: Thank you. 

Ron: Thanks, Sharon. I'll see you. 

Sharon: See you. Don't forget the chocolate.

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14 minutes, 55 seconds

Ron: I'll get it.

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14 minutes, 58 seconds

[music]