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Sharon: So, um, you talked about, you know, data theft and it being on the rise, and I find it 

so, um, interesting the

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similarities between data theft and material theft. 

Um, I read not long ago that police stations had toilet seats,

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uh, being stolen from their police stations and, and when, uh, they were asked about this, they said that they have nothing to go on.

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Patricia: Oh my gosh.

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I was very excited to show off my new sunglasses.

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Sharon: Well, they are lovely. Do you I know you like my sunglasses. Would you like to try them on?

Patricia:  I would love to. 

Sharon: Do you mind if I try?

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Patricia: No, let's try them.

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Sharon: Okay. You know, I have like a little face.

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Patricia: My husband has these aviators and he I call them his Joe Biden glasses and now we could be matching. Quite nice. They look very movie starish.

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Sharon: I I want to talk about AI. I know that you've been a little bit vocal about the AI portion of Bill 194 and you critiqued

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it and so tell us what what your beef is with AI in Bill 194. 

Patricia: First of all, I thought it was great that Ontario

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actually, you know, turned its mind, the legislature and the government and uh and then the legislature turned their minds to addressing this important

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Issue.

Sharon:  of course

Patricia:  AI, cyber security, digital technologies uh aimed at children and youth. So uh

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kudos for having uh developed and adopted and passed schedule one of Bill 194. Um the

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issue we had was that the law as it stands is really just a framework..

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It actually has no rules. It just says that we will have rules.

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Sharon: We will have regulations. 

Patricia: We'll have regulations and standard technical standards and ministerial directives to

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regulate all this really high-risk activity which is wonderful but we wanted to see more in the law itself.

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We wanted to see first of all principles. So when it comes to AI we said you know you should put those principles in the law itself. This is

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not the you know this is not stuff for regulation. These are universal principles that should be legally anchored..

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You know, in stat statute. So, we we we strongly recommended that there be principles um governing AIs such that they be at the very least reliable,

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valid and reliable, that they be safe, that they be privacy protective,

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transparent, accountable, and human rights affirming. 

Sharon: What advice would you give to those provincial agencies

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incorporating AI into their daily practices uh or AI tools?

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What what should they do?

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Patricia: Uh the Ontario government did issue a what's called the trustworthy AI framework where they have um and they

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did actually I think listen to uh some of the principles that we were putting forth and recommended. So we're happy to

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see those in the framework. Now of course that's not a law. It's not a regulation but it is binding in so far as it is the government telling its

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employees which is public servants uh how they should approach uh AI including the kinds of uh impacts assessments and

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the kinds of transparency principles etc. So there is a framework that exists and I think public institutions would be

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well advised to follow that framework to consult with our office in so far as there are you know personal information

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implications and as there often are uh when you're dealing with AI and and and u using personal data in the process

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Sharon: just because AI principles are not legislated uh it doesn't mean that personal information is not implicated

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by the use of AI tools and therefore you know whether it's FIPPA or any other privacy legislations may be breached and

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so always thinking about privacy when implementing AI is going to be essential.

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Patricia: Yeah, you said it really well and there's you know a lot of regulators,

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data protection regulators make the point and and I agree that you know AI is not a completely unregulated space.

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If personal information is implicated either at the front end in terms of training the AI or at the at the end of

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the process in terms of drawing inferences or observations and making decisions about people based on accurate or inaccurate information uh imputed to

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them. Those are privacy aspects that are already governed. So there there is um there is already

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existing legislation but of course as you know AI is even broader than privacy and so that's why uh I think there are

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benefits to regulating the space in a more holistic manner.

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Sharon: We're going to play a little game. We just talked about AI and um I I want to see how well you know AI.

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Oh yeah. Don't worry. Don't worry. It's going to be very difficult. Um, so this game is called I or AI.

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I'm going to read you a quote and I want you to tell me if you said it or if AI said it. 

Patricia: I have a story about that.

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Sharon: Go for it.

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Patricia: So I had to give a speech um on the regulation of AI and I was up late and

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my son who's a university student comes up and said, "What are you doing up so late?" I said, "Oh, I'm giving a speech and I'm just putting finishing touches

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on it." He says, "What's the speech about?" I said, "Regulation of AI." And he says, "Well, mom." And he just, of course, types in chat GPT, give me a speech on regulation of AI

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And what came out was pretty darn good. And as I read it, I said, "Oh my god, that could be me." Like, I could be saying those things

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In fact, I think I've probably said it in the past.

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Sharon: Borrowed some of your talking points and created another speech. Yeah. 

Patricia: And so this is a very fun game. It's gonna be hard.

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Sharon:It It might be hard. 

Patricia: Okay, let's go for it.

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Sharon: In a world where trust is increasingly hard to come by, Ontarians deserve clear rules, strong safeguards, and full

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transparency from their institutions. I or AI.

Patricia: I. 

Sharon: You know yourself. I love it. Boom.

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Whether it's how decisions are made, how personal data is used, or how emerging technologies are 

governed, our office will continue pushing for real

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accountability. And we will remind the public that when your technology is not serving you, turn it off and on again.

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Patricia: AI, 

Sharon: you're right.

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Patricia: It's it's quite good, but I don't remember reviewing that quote.

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Sharon: Okay. Next. To foster greater trust in artificial intelligence, we need a robust regulatory framework, we need a

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policy environment that is supportive of the technology yet safe.

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Patricia: Ooh, that's a tough one. That that I/ we 

Sharon: That's not an option.

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It's I or AI.

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Patricia: Uh I I'm going to Oh, that see. It's something I could have said. I think I'm going to say I. 

Sharon: Ding ding ding you got it. All

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right. Okay, here we go. We live in a data-driven world propelled by AI that may feel very scary and overwhelming at times, but we can't give up the good

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fight. By collaborating, being flexible in our approach, and stepping forward with courage and perseverance, we can

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help build a better future where robots cook our dinners and clean our toilets like George Jetson promised.

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Patricia: You had me right up till the end. That first part I think is I and then you switched to AI. Is that right? 

Sharon: You got it.

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Yeah. Wow. You You know yourself really well,

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I have to say. Okay. So, Patricia, you just finished your first term as commissioner. Congratulations. Patricia: Thank you so much.

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Sharon: And entering or you have already entered your second term. I would love to hear what are like the top three highlights of the first term and you are welcome to brag. This is a safe space.

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Patricia: What really stands out for me are the things that we did that were different. First of all, Info Matters podcast.

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Everybody listening to Info Matters podcast.

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Sharon:  It is Fantastic. You have excellent guests in great discussions.

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Patricia: And you know what? It is so valuable because it's all about real world conversations with, you know, people experiencing homelessness, women,

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children, young teens, uh, racialized populations, indigenous populations, you

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know, law enforcement issues and health issues that we talk about. and and I I learned so much from that as a data

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protection regulator. Uh we are up to now the the first and only to have a youth advisory council.

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Sharon: I love this. Tell us more about it.

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Patricia: We have a strategic advisory council and again I told my my amazing team I think we should have a youth member on this

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council for to bring the youth perspective and they came back and they said we'll up you one commissioner. we think we should have a whole youth advisory council. And I thought, oh my god,

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you're absolutely right. And off we went. And they really, really did help us tremendously in understanding the youth perspective, in giving us advice

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on how we can um make our educational initiatives more relevant to them and speak to them in

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their language. Um, and they've helped us and given us such great advice. It's amazing. 

Sharon: Did you find um like did they say anything that was surprising to you?

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Like did they do they actually care about privacy? Are they thinking about privacy?

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Patricia: They absolutely are and they're what's surprising is how smart they are and how insightful

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and um how courageous they are. Like you know they say it like it is.

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Sharon: How old do you have to be to be on the council?

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Patricia: Between 15 and 25.

Sharon:  I was I was going to offer uh for you to recruit my uh previous guests in the car for privacy

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day. I had a 10-year-old sit in my car and talk about what privacy means to him. And uh it's mind-blowing.

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It really is. But I guess he's a bit too young for this..

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Patricia: For this uh ok . Uh the third thing I thought um that was really neat was another

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initiative we did uh a little bit out of the you know uh trodden path and that is

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a transparency showcase where we you know as regulators we tend really to focus often because we're are we're

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about all about compliance and we tend to draw a lot of attention to situations where there's

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non-compliance. and and trying to um you know pull the lessons out for others to

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learn from others mistakes. So we tend to focus a lot on mistakes but sometimes you know uh we need to focus on the positive models.

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Sharon:  I love that yes  

Patricia: and encourage others not only to learn from mistakes but to learn from good

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Best in best class examples of how you do transparency well. great submissions from provincial institutions,

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governments, municipal governments, law enforcement, municipalities and um universities and so we have been

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very pleased with the uptake and we have created a online 3D virtual gallery 

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where you can go and see each submission in the form of an exhibit just as you would through a virtual museum. You walk

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through the gallery and you see all these exhibits. 

Sharon: This is on your website. I

Patricia: t's on our website.

Sharon:  I love that.

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Patricia: And so it's 3D and you can walk around and read more about Oh, this is interesting. And most importantly, what impacts has had what what has that

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information or the transparency of that information actually had as an impact, a positive impact on people's on Ontarian's lives.

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Sharon: I love that you're using this positive reinforcement as opposed to doom and gloom. you want to emphasize, look at the incredible work that people do and

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motivate others to do great work as well. So, I absolutely love that idea.

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Thank you so much for sharing that with us. 

Patricia: Thank you.

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Sharon: Thank you. I do feel very um like a big celebrity. Well, I'm like sitting beside the celebrity, so yeah. Um